Macdona, Texas
December 22, 2002
Lisa Tellez
Palo Alto College
History 1302 - Spring 2003
The Tellez Sisters From Left to Right: Elena Santos, Aunt Antonia Ramirez
(99 years young!), Teresa Patterson, and Guadalupe Garcia
INTRODUCTION
On December 22, 2002, Elena (Len) Santos Tellez, age 62, Guadalupe (Nena)
Tellez Garcia, age 65, Teresa (Tere) Tellez Patterson, age 75, and Teresa's
daughter, Diane Lopez (translator), gave an account of life growing up as
poverty-stricken farm workers in Cotulla, Texas and surrounding areas. Tere
was born on October 15, 1928 in Woodward County, Texas. She was raised in
Cotulla, and now lives in San Antonio, where she, her late husband and eleven
children relocated in an effort to escape economic oppression. Nena was
born on January 4, 1937 in Millet, Texas where she lived for awhile before
moving to Cotulla. Later, Nena, her late husband and her thirteen children
relocated to Racine, Wisconsin. Like Tere, Nena and her husband hoped to
"build a better life" for their children." Len, who was born on September
15, 1940 in Cotulla Texas, now resides in San Antonio with her husband,
Guadalupe (Chucului) Santos, and their son, Roger. Len and Chucului have
five other children.
The ladies are known to me because their brother, Jose Ramirez Tellez,
is my father-in-law. Jose was the luckiest of the eleven Tellez siblings,
as he was allowed to continue in school until completing the ninth grade.
He was also allowed to attend classes regularly, and was not kept out to work
the farms and ranches. He spent most of his time living with his grandmother,
Jesusita, in town. His sisters, Len, Tere, Nena, and the other children
were not so lucky. They received very little education, and were not able
to attend school regularly due to the need for more workers in the fields.
Tere only completed the fourth grade, and claims to have only attended enough
days each school year to amount to one month. Len and Nena only completed
the fifth grade. Like many children who grew up as farm workers, the Tellez
children were often split for long periods of time, as relatives would sometimes
need extra hands on the farms that they were working, or because half or
the family would leave to perform migrant work in other areas in order to
make ends meet. Clearly, life was always planned around work demands. People
were forced to place everything else, including health, happiness and emotional
ties, second to work needs. It was a matter of survival.
The Tellez family is one of many generations of Jehovah's Witnesses, Len
being very devout. Her father, Jose Torres Tellez, was the son of the town
midwife and herbal healer, Jesusita Torres Tellez. Len's brother, Jose Jr.,
now a retiring barber, resided with Jesusita much of the time, learning
her techniques, which he put in to practice delivering three of his own
children. He often proudly displays the bloodstained barber sheers he used
to cut the umbilical cords at the births. For now, though, please enjoy
a portion of one of my interviews with Len, Nena and Tere.
TRANSCRIPTION
Lisa :
Okay. All right now, let’s get to the children now. What are the common
things that went on in day-to-day life for you all?
Len:
Well, it was nice, and funny, and sometimes, hard. Cause they sure make
us to work. Cause if we didn’t do our chores, we surely get it. But we were
real, you know, well trained. And we had to do first our chores and then,
cause, my mom said, “I’m gonna go over there to the pens”, the corrales,
I think they were called pens, “and I’m gonna do my milking. By the time
I come back, I want the house clean and the dishes washed, cause I’m gonna
have to come and start making tortillas, and cooking, and fixing my meal
for my cheese and everything, and I don’t have time to do that”. So she (Nena)
had to take care of the bed, bedrooms. And I have to take care of the kitchen.
Clean the kitchen, wash the dishes, and everything. And her (Tere), she
didn’t get that much, cause she went with her grandma to town.
Tere comments in Spanish:
To see the boys!
Laughter breaks out.
Diane asks her mother, Tere, what her responsibilities were.
Diane translates Tere’s answer:
She would wash the clothes.
Tere adds:
Put the fire, y la agua caliente… (and the water hot, i.e. heat the water)
Diane:
They had to heat water to wash.
Lisa:
Okay, so you had to build a fire, then heat the water on the fire to boiling….
Diane translates for Tere:
We would have to boil the sheets and the pillowcases, everything.
Len:
Boil them!
Lisa:
Wow.
Nena:
Everything that it’s white.
Len:
With Clorox and soap. Lejilla. They use to put lejilla on it. If there
was no Clorox, they use to put a lejilla. It’s like a powder…
Diane:
It’s a homemade soap.
Lisa:
Oh, a homemade soap.
Len:
Si, so the clothes can came, you know, white and clean. It was hard. It
was hard. And then you have to wash in the tallador.
Diane:
the scrub board.
Lisa:
scrub board
Len:
Yeah, and then when you were doing your ironing, you have to….
Diane:
starch it
Len:
make some brazas, like they are doing right now to make barbecue. Uh,
light all the charcoal, and make brazas to put a iron, iron, to warm it
up.
Lisa:
Okay, so you set the iron in the coals until it got hot…
Len:
hot, and we iron and….
Nena:
But good thing it was my mother got this big style and put the, the lena
(wood) all the time, and got the comal (the cook top) and put one, two three,
planchas (irons)….
Len:
Well, well, when she got that big stove…. [wood-burning stove]
The ladies get excited and all begin speaking Spanish at once.
Diane attempts to translate:
She had three irons at a time. She put them all, and when one was getting
cooled off, because they weren’t electrical, she’d place it back on the fire,
and get the one that was next.
Lisa:
Oh, I see.
Diane translates for Tere:
But they weren’t electrical, so they would have to burn on the coal.
Lisa:
Okay. Now, did life seem different for you, ladies, than it did for your
brothers and, you know, how was it different? Um, you know, how was it different?
Len:
But you know, those times we use to wear the same clothes like three times.
If we iron em and we go to town, when we came back, we didn’t get dirty
or anything, we have to hang it up again….
Nena breaks in:
take it out right away, put the ones that we gonna play…
Len:
When we went again out to school or to town, those same close we still
use. Not like right now that every time you get (can’t make out the word here)
you throw it up and get some more cause today it’s easy. You just put it
in a washer and dryer and that’s it. In those days you have to really look
out for your clothes. That’s why they weren’t, they weren’t… One pair of
shoes lasted us about six months! And we wear everyday the same pair of shoes.
Lisa:
Wow.
Len:
And to play and everything, we use to be barefooted.
Lisa:
Oh, I see.
Nena:
or sandals
Len:
Or use old shoes, that they still wear a little bit. So, that’s why I
said “I wish we were in those times” cause right now you, you waste a lot
of money cause you wanna be buying and buying and buying.
Diane translates for Tere:
She says unlike me she couldn’t compare. She had one pair of shoes when
today I own thirty pairs of shoes.
Laughter breaks out.
Nena:
Yeah. In those days, our father and mother buy us a dressed up shoes for
Saturday and Sunday. Then they buy us for the ones to go to school and come.
And the ones when we came from school was an old pair for the house. We didn’t
use to have swimming pool, but we use to have this big pond. And a big pila,
I don’t know how they say in English. It’s just like a swimming pool, in
those days. But those get a lot of water, for the cows.
Diane:
It was an enormous tank.
Lisa:
Yes! A tank. Yeah.
Diane:
And they would use it for the cows, and then they’d clean out and they’d
use it for them to bathe in, and swim in.
Nena:
That’s, that’s for swimming, for us.
Lisa:
Oh, yeah! I see.
Nena:
It was sooo nice. I, I like to go back in those days. Because everything,
it was like, uh, I don’t know how to explain it, because with one sup, with
one soap… We use to call em the chivo, the goat, uh, soap. With that soap,
you can wash clothes, you can wash anything. It was a big soap.
Len:
even your head and your body
Nena:
It was that big. (Nena places her hands about eight inches apart to demonstrate
the size of the soap.)
Diane:
And it came from goat, and I understand that is from the skin of the goat.
Nena:
Yeah.
Tere breaks in broken English:
Linda! Y no avilla toilet paper. No toilet paper.
(The ladies like to call me Linda rather than Lisa.)
Nena:
It was easy!
Apparently the ladies are becoming very enthusiastic about sharing the
information and begin talking about many different things at once.
Diane translates for Tere:
They make their own female napkins. They made em out of cloth. Their mom
made them out of white cloth. They had to be made out of purified white
cotton. And she would make them for all their daughters. Remember, they
had an enormous amount of children. So all the girls, whenever they went
through their female, um….
Lisa:
cycle
Diane:
cycles, she would have to know, and make them homemade—have their things
ready for them.
Lisa:
And, and so, now, what happened afterwards? I mean did….
Diane:
Once they did that, they, they….
Diane addresses Tere:
Mom, did you all wash them, or did they dispose of them?
Tere:
No! I make eh hole!
Diane:
They had to dig them. They had to burn them. They put them in a hole.
The ladies all begin speaking at once in Spanish.
Diane translates:
Either they got burned, or they had to be buried in a hole.
Lisa:
Oh, I see. Why is that?
Len:
Cause we were ashamed.
Lisa:
You were ashamed! Let’s hear about that.
Diane:
Back then whenever you did that, you almost didn’t talk about it because
that was shameful.
Lisa:
Why was it considered shameful?
Len:
Cause they never tell us anything about it. That’s why it was… That’s
why I, I tell my granddaughters now, “I wish my mom should….” You know when
she first started her period, this young lady?
Nena points at her older sister, Tere.
Len continues:
You know what she said? You know what she was doing?
Lisa:
What?
Len:
Being in the water all day long. All day. She thought she was dying.
Nena:
All day! All day!
Diane:
She sat in the water all day. She said that something had happened, that
she had cut herself.
Lisa:
Ohhh.
Diane:
She didn’t know what was happening to her body. They were never explained.
They were never taught anything about sex, or about how they became ladies,
or nothing. That wasn’t an open discussion.
Len:
I think people from back there… I don’t know what they were thinking.
They never… and that’s why I said, that was a good life, but, because in
those days there were, I don’t know, that I knew, uh, you know, pregnant,
uh, ladies, like nowadays that there’s twelve and thirteen years ladies
already pregnant. In those days, oh no, cause we didn’t know nothing about
it. You see, we were so, uh….
Lisa:
naïve
Diane:
They were very naïve when it came to that. You see, I think the parents
chose for it to stay that way so that they could keep their children with
them young, longer….
Lisa:
innocence
Len:
Yeah, cause we didn’t know nothing about it.
Diane:
So that they could use them out in the fields and stuff, and they wanted
them innocent of what could occur, cause they could keep them longer.
Lisa:
Oh, yes. They wanted to keep you longer because they needed the help with
the….
Diane:
to grow everything in the farming life.
Len asks Tere:
And how old were you when you started your period?
Tere:
Yo creo pa las kinse.
Diane:
She was going to be fifteen.
Nena:
Now my granddaughters that I have now, barely are ten years old and they’re
already….
Lisa:
Yes! My daughter as well.
Len:
You see. How do time, things change?
Diane:
Time changes so much.
Len:
Yes, cause I was almost thirteen when I began my period. And I was big
like that, you know. Cause they say the bigger you are, the more, uh, younger
you start because of the, I don’t know. But I don’t know. I was thirteen
and I too big, you know, they thought I was already fifteen or sixteen. But,
no, I was thirteen. But my granddaughter was barely going to be ten, and
she was big too, and she started her period. So I think the times is ugly
right now, uh….
Lisa:
So, so, did you get the feeling somehow that, um, did y'all feel different
after that happened? You know, did….
Diane begins translating to her mother.
Len brakes in:
Yeah. I think for me I was a scared cause I was said, I was thinking that
“oh, mamma I already a senorita. I don’t want to have a baby!” I thought
that it was….
Lisa:
Automatic?
Len:
Yes! Automatic!
All the ladies begin to giggle.
Diane:
She actually didn’t want the responsibility. She was scared.
Tere says in Spanish:
No. The baby won’t come out until you are married. Once you are married,
then the baby will come out.
(I find Tere’s pure, innocent outlook on life precious! She assumes that
sex will never take place outside of marriage.)
Diane asks the ladies:
And did y'all get treated differently?
Len:
That’s the only think I like, about my mother, that she esplained: “Just
don’t let know man touch you. In they try to do something to you, you run
and you tell me.”
Lisa:
Now, did, did the people treat you different after that?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Tere:
No. Mass responsibility. (No, more responsibility.)
Diane:
As soon as you became a little lady, my Mom says, then you had a lot more
responsibility. They were so use to work that they weren’t scared. But the
responsibility became bigger.
Len:
Yeah, because then we had to learn to make tortillas. We have to…
Diane:
They had to start preparing for their own lives.
Lisa:
Oh, I see.
Len:
We have to learn to cook and do everything, cause, my mom said “If you
gonna get married one of these days, we don’t want your husband to said, ‘your
mom didn’t taught you anything’”.
Lisa:
So was it kind of assumed that that would be your role in life—everybody
was going to get married, have babies and take care of a man and a home?
Len:
Yeah,
Nena:
Yeah
Len:
And that’s what we did. Me and her, that’s why we don’t know nothing—just
a little bit.
Lisa:
Oh, I think you know a lot. I think you know a lot more than a lot of
people who have been to college.
The ladies all giggle.
Lisa:
And speaking of that. Let’s discuss your education. Y'all were briefly
mentioning that earlier, before we began. Uh, how much education did you get,
and how did people look at education for women back then? What was the, kind
of the, thought about that? Was education considered something for women?
Diane translates the question.
Tere answers in Spanish:
It didn’t matter. If you went it was fine, if you didn’t it didn’t matter
either.
Diane questions further, and her mother, Tere, responds.
Len breaks in:
I think it, for them, for the white people it was necessary, cause they
really try to do their best for the white people.
Diane breaks in to translate Tere’s previous response:
Okay. Back then, the white people had to go to school. That was like something
that they had to do. But since these people were “permitted”, the Mexican
Americans were permitted to go to school, but it wasn’t something they had
to. It was by choice. If they went, fine. If they didn’t fine. There was
no obligation, and they did not have to attend school at all.
Lisa:
So, I’m assuming then, that the, kind of the, the opinion was that, um,
uh, Hispanics weren’t really going to…
Diane:
to prosper
Lisa:
Right.
Diane:
So they didn’t need education. But the whites were going to prosper and
be something, so it was necessary for them. That’s why the schools were
made. But these children (meaning Mexican American children) didn’t have
to go. If they wanted they went, if they didn’t they never got reprimanded.
Lisa:
Okay, so then it was assumed that, that Hispanics would be, uh, farmers…
Len:
Yeah!
Lisa:
migrant workers, uh…
Len:
And another thing that it was over there, cause over there in Cotulla,
there was a, let me tell you, you could a say, Mexican school. Cause there,
it was for only Mexicans. And it was on the side of the Mexicans. And the
white children go to the brand new school to the other side.
Diane:
One school was on one side of town and one was on the other.
Len:
On the other side. And they have the best school, the white people. So
I don’t know what kind of town it was that. Cause there was a lot of Mexican
kids over here in the, in the Mexican school that, uh, we call —Welhousen
school. But there, they didn’t take no white people, only Mexicans. And
over there, they didn’t take no Mexican people, only white people.
Lisa:
And did they ever talk about it? Did they ever say why? You know, what….
Len:
No, because in those days the white people was always in the good neighborhood,
with paved streets and everything. The Mexicans were over here with dirt
roads and everything.
Diane:
And there wasn’t a question. It’s just you all lived that way.
Len:
Yeah. And, and the white people, most of them graduate—go till the twelfth
grade. But, uh, the Mexicans, they were barely they passed to the big school.
Diane:
Mom, until what grade did you go to school?
Tere answers in Spanish.
Diane translates:
She went all the way until she was in the fourth grade, but if she went
one month a year, that was a lot, for her to attend school. She, instead,
they would have her work. And here mother was scheduled to have a child
that year, then she would definitely have to go home and stay with the grandma
at the ranch because she had to take over the obligations, like the cooking
and the cleaning, and the ironing, and stuff.
Diane:
And Tia Nena, what grade level did you go to?
Nena:
Fifth grade, but mine, mine it was different, because in that time I went
to live on a farm where my dad use to have the big farm, and I use to go
and come in the bus. But, but, I went to a small town, like I told you, in
Millet, Texas, and there was no discrimination, there were white, brown,
black, Mexicans, whatever.
Len:
All together.
Nena:
All together.
Diane:
And you only went to fifth grade?
Nena:
Yeah.
Lisa:
So when you went to Cotulla then, did this, this racism that existed there…
Len:
She didn’t went to Cotulla.
Nena:
I didn’t went to Cotulla, I only went when….
Lisa:
No, but I’m saying when you moved to Cotulla. Cause obviously there was
racism there.
Len:
Yeah.
Nena:
Yeah.
Nena:
Only, only the ones that passing in the like from nine up, they go together
with the white people.
Lisa:
Oh, okay.
Nena:
Nine, ten, eleven, twelfth.
Diane:
Only in the high school.
Nena:
Yeah, only the high school, all together.
Diane:
If they succeeded to get to the ninth grade, then they were able to attend
the same school. But they actually had to succeed to the ninth grade to
be able to attend the same school.
Len:
And you know, and you know why was that?
Lisa:
Why?
Len:
Because they were a few people that graduate—the few people that went
past the ninth grade. That’s why they get together in the same school. They
fit over there cause there was no too much young people that went through
the whole grades. Everybody had to help…
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
To help their parents to work.
Lisa:
Okay. And what grade did you complete?
Len:
I passed to the fifth grade, and in those times, I remember that they
started to, when you passed to the fifth grade, you have to get in volleyball,
basketball, and wear shorts, go and practice in the gym and everything,
and I didn’t like that so I said “no, I rather go to the ranch with my mom
and help here work.”
Lisa:
So, y'all never did really see any need for education…
Len:
No.
Lisa:
Because you assumed that your role as a woman was…
Len:
Yeah, and, and….
Diane:
After you helped your parents, you grew up, you married, you had your
own children, and start the same role again.
Len:
Yeah, and my grandma use to tell us “as long as you learn how to write
your name, that’s enough. What you have to do is learn how to cook, how to
sew, and what to, how to do your chores in your house, and that’s it. That’s
your responsibility as a lady.”
Nena:
Be nice and clean.
Lisa:
Now, how, what were you instructed as far as, uh, your role with a man?
What was your place in the home? In other words, did you have any say? Were
you, you know, were you suppose to have back then—any woman—was she to have
any say in the house, or, you know, how did that work?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Tere:
No mass el. (only him)
Tere speaks further in Spanish.
Diane translates:
She says in her era only the man could dictate what was going to happen
in that household.
Lisa:
And why was that?
Tere breaks in with a comment.
Diane translates:
When she (Tere) married, she was sent to live with my dad’s mother. (Her
mother-in-law) And so they lived in the same household for three years. And
her role was just to continue to help the mother clean, do the laundry, the
cooking, and stuff like that. She didn’t have a say.
Diane asks her mother why she chose to live with her mother-in-law. She
asks if it was because she wanted to, if she was afraid to say anything,
or is that was just the way things were.
Diane translates Tere’s answer:
Cause that’s the way they were taught. The woman didn’t have a say.
Tere breaks in English:
I like to stay with my mother-in-law!
Diane:
She loved to stay with her mother-in-law. She didn’t have a problem.
Len:
Oh, she was a good mother-in-law!
Diane translates for Tere:
They never argued, never disagreed with anything, but her mother-in-law
was very sweet and very mellow as well. She was real understanding, real
calm, and so she tried, tried to, you know….
Len:
to help her with the kids
Diane:
Cause my mother had eleven children of her own. We’re eleven.
Lisa:
Wow.
Diane:
And then my dad, my dad’s family, they were nine or ten in themselves
so that was huge.
Lisa:
Did they ever say why, I mean did anybody ever talk about why it was that
the man had, you know, made all the decisions in the home?
Diane:
Okay, they got married a little bit, you know, older, I mean as time went
on, so how did things change for y’all?
Diane addresses Len and Nena.
Diane:
Did y’all have a say when y’all first got married?
Len:
Well… I did.
Len begins to look rather sheepish. She and the other ladies laugh.
Lisa:
You did?
Len:
Yeah. I did, cause I told him, cause, uh, since he was start working on,
on ranches, you know, eh, paying by the hour… They use to pay him by the
hour and he only got, uh, when he started he only got about thirty dollars
a week. Uh, huh, and working the whole week, till, from Monday, from Monday
to Saturday. We only got Sunday to go and do the shopping, grocery shopping,
and do whatever, and come back to the ranch. So that was it. So after that,
I said…
Lisa:
This was your husband.
Len:
Yes, he was my husband.
Lisa:
So he was… Was he a sharecropper, or he worked for a sharecropper?
Len:
No, he worked with a man on the ranch, you know, doing whatever.
Diane:
He worked for a sharecropper.
Len:
Sharecropper, uh huh.
Lisa:
I see.
Len:
But uh, since we were having uh, uh, children, one after another, I said
it’s gonna get hard on us, but what we gonna do with so little? We gotta
move to a big town and do something about it. So, that’s what I told him
and, and he told me “you’re right, right don’t we go up north and work so,
cause, uh, some of my relatives were already up north where they earn some
more money.”
Lisa:
So that’s how y’all ended up moving to San Antonio?
Len:
Yeah, cause he said let’s move up north, and I say “no, up north I can’t,
I think it’s too far away cause I got my parents, and they’re old and they
are over here in Cotulla, so let’s just move to, to…
Diane:
to the big city
Len:
to the big city. Let’s go to San Antonio.
Lisa:
Well, see now, that’s why… I’d like to get back to that question about
why, how people justify women having no say in the marriage. You know, they
had to have a reason. Did, did, was it because, was it religious reasons,
or was it because they thought that women, you know…
Diane:
Okay, Tia (aunt), how about you, when you got married, did you have a
say in your marriage?
Nena:
No. My life, it was different. Very different. When I got married, I got
married to a, to a man that he, he traveled like the Indians.
Diane:
Okay.
Nena:
He use to go to the panhandle to, to the panhandle of Lubbock, Texas…
Diane:
Uh, huh
Nena:
in certain months—three or four months. Then, when it was cold over there,
then we use to move back, to the south—over here by Corpus, Sinton, um…
Diane:
Y’all would travel with the time, wherever it was warm….
Nena:
Yeah. Because, cause, he was eh, um, trukero.
Diane:
He was a truck driver.
Nena:
Trick… truck driver. And he use to move people from the south to the west,
from the west to the south….
Carmen:
The workers.
Nena:
The workers.
Diane:
Oh. He would move the people that actually worked the farms.
Nena:
Yeah, yeah.
Diane:
He would transport them.
Lisa:
Right.
Nena:
Back and forth. So, for me, it was… In the way, I like it, because I didn’t
get too bored to be in the south, and I didn’t get too bored to be in the
cold. I use to go like the Indians. When it gets cold over there, I go back
to the, to the, fresh air, and then… Until my, my family get to go, to…
We come to be eight in the family, and me and my husband. The people keep
growing and growing. Then we decided to stay for good in Wisconsin.
Lisa:
I see.
Diane:
Cause she had ten children already, and they were….
Nena:
At that time I had ten children. I gotta have insurance. I gotta have,
you know, a place to my kids to go to school.
Lisa:
So, did you find that it was better there in a way?
Nena:
Yeah. It was much better for me and my husband, because we got too many
childrens, and, and that way they can go to school, and that way we can have
money for the doctors. If they are come to be in the hospital, we have good
insurance.
Diane:
Yeah.
Nena:
Yeah.
Diane:
That’s when all that kicked in.
Nena:
That’s how come, that’s how come we stay there, in Wisconsin.
Diane:
But her, her question is, did you have a say in your marriage?
Diane and Len begin explaining to Nena in Spanish.
Nena:
We always discussed it.
Diane:
It had already changed. The era had already changed.
Nena:
We taught that for her.
Diane:
But not for her. She never had a say till way later.
Nena and Diane are referring to Tere, the older sister.
Nena:
Me and my husband, we always talk what, what it’s much better for.
Diane:
See, times started changing….
Lisa:
Now how about your parents?
Diane asks the ladies in Spanish how things were done with their parents,
and who had the say—their mother, their father, or both.
Len:
Well, in the beginning it was my dad.
Diane:
Whatever your dad says.
Len:
Si. But after awhile, my ma had a say, cause she thought about it and
she say “we’re getting older and we’re never going to have a home of our
own”. Like many people of today, they don’t have homes of their own. They’re
renting here and there and moving like that. And my mother said “I don’t
want to be like that. I want to have a little house of my… it doesn’t matter
if it’s a little house, but I wanna have a house of my own.” So, my dad
said “and how are you going to buy that house? We don’t have the money to
buy that house, it costs too much money.” And she said “don’t worry about
it.” I hear that the owner of the house that she was living was selling the
house purdy cheap. And she was, she was going to leave the house alone, and
she was going to move over here to San Antonio. And the owner of that house
where she was living, she was already Atlanta, Georgia, in Atlanta, Georgia.
And she was selling that house. So, she told my dad, that she was selling
the house and, and, and it was very, you know, good price that they were
giving it, and my mom said “let’s buy it”. And he got… “With what money!
Do you have money?” And she said “I got money”. Cause she was one of those
ladies that she, you know, use to save money.
Diane:
She had her own little piggy bank.
Lisa:
All right!
Len:
Without telling nobody. And she said, “I got money to buy it.” So she
go ahead and bought that house—that little house.
Diane:
And that’s when it gave her the ability to have a say in the home.
Len:
Yes, yes.
Lisa:
Oh, I see.
Len:
And then, and…..
Diane:
once she showed responsibility and authority.
Len:
Because she splained to him, “if we don’t wanna have, where…whenever we
don’t find no ranch to, to spend our last days, where are we going to go?”
So, so then my dad said “okay, if you got the money then go ahead and buy
it.” So she bought that house. Then she, she said “this is my house.” And
she can do whatever she wants over there.
Everyone laughs.
Len:
If she wanted to, if she wanted to do another room, add it on, she just
save the money and tell him go ahead and start and do this and do that.
Lisa:
Now, were women considered equal to men?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Lisa:
When you were growing up in Cotulla.
Len:
I think, I, I think that the man use to have, they, they think that they
have all, all,
Diane:
all the rights.
Len:
All the rights. Whatever they said.
Lisa:
And why did they think that was? Did they think that….
Diane:
Their parents taught them? And then like….
Lisa:
But I mean, did they, did they…. What did they use for an excuse, for
that?
Len:
Because they were the ones that work.
Lisa:
Ah!
Len:
Because the ladies didn’t work. You know the work in the house?
Diane:
I didn’t count.
Len:
It didn’t count! They think that everybody can go….
Diane:
Money! Money!
Len:
If they bring a maid to your house and, and do the cleaning that they,
they think they don’t suppose to pay the lady. Do you think the ladies gonna
make the….
Nena:
the cleaning free?
Len:
the cleaning free? Or, what?
Lisa:
Yes. I see.
Len:
You see? I don’t know what they were thinking! Uh, I think they, they….
Diane:
That was just their way of thinking.
Len:
that the wife, it was like a maid.
Lisa:
There was no value in what she did.
Len:
Yeah, yeah. That’s what they were thinking.
Lisa:
So they were putting dollar value on….
Len:
Yeah. So now, I’m glad that the ladies are, you know, open, open…
Diane:
their eyes
Len:
their eyes. And, and, and they’re thinking that they have feelins too
and they are not made of rubber. Or, they’re made like the same they’re
made. If they had feelins and they are made of meat like us, why don’t we
have the same thing that they have?
Lisa:
Yes. Exactly.
Len:
If we want to do something, we have to, eh, if we have the right to do
it, and if we’re doing right, why don’t we try to do our best?
Lisa:
Yes. And our time is valuable too.
Len:
Yeah! Cause you know that, that you don’t know that you’re gonna be, uh,
you know, uh, uh, just thinking that “no, I, I don’t wanna do nothing about
it cause I have him.” Or, or, if he, if he thinks “well, I was just gonna,
you know, whatever she… anyway, cause she’s gonna live forever.” They can’t…
how bout if, if you die tomorrow? And he don’t know how to handle the things
over here in the house that he’s suppose to know? He, if he’s suppose to
know—things that you do—they have to learn em. Cause, the day that you’re
gone, or you’re no longer here, it’s gonna be hard on them.
Diane:
Yes. Share responsibility.
Len:
Uh, huh. That’s why the ladies now, if I…. I think it’s right. That’s
why I tell my sons now, now I tell them “if they work, and you work, outside
of the house, you have to share the responsibilities over here, if she gotta
do the washing or the ironing, you do the washing. You, you know, share—share
things.” Do the chores, like the same thing the wife. Those days they say
“the wife is for the house.” Okay! You, you try to do the best, and if you
want to work overtime—and do it! Just bring whatever the wife needs! But
it’s hard! They don’t want to do that. They just wanna work, uh…. Well, some
of them do, but some, they don’t. They just wanna work their regular hours,
and that’s it. Whatever you can get out of it, you do it.
Lisa:
How about the wives? Did they work regular hours—like eight to five, Monday
through Friday?
Len:
Uh, I wish! I wish!
laughter
Len:
I wish….
Nena:
The, the, ladies use to work thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen hours—from
the sunrise, to…
Diane:
to the sundown.
Lisa:
And I’m sure you didn’t get a day off, did you?
Len agrees:
Yeah! And I hope you get those hours of sleep, cause sometimes if… Like
on Sundays, if you can sleep little bit late, you can’t cause somebody have
to go and move the kitchen cause you any gonna have a cup of coffee in the
bed, or something like that , at least for once. That’s what I said!
Len laughs
Lisa:
Now how about, how about being Hispanic women? Did you, did you sense…
In the same way that we were discussing that women were considered not as
important as men, did you get the feeling growing up in Cotulla that, that
you were not as important as the white people were? I mean, did people have
a tendency to look at people that way, or that didn’t exist, in Cotulla?
Diane poses the question to her mother Tere in Spanish, asking if Hispanics
received equal respect.
Nena jumps in:
No! No!
Nena gives a detailed answer in Spanish.
Diane translates:
Okay. Linda, uh, Lisa, she’s saying that before when, when you were, if
you were Hispanic, if you were Hispanic, and you were married to a Hispanic
man, or Mexican man and you were Mexican, he would only take you… their
tradition was you only went where they took you. If you weren’t taken, if
you weren’t taken there, then you didn’t go. So, most Mexican women did
not follow their men, unless they were allowed to, or were asked to come
along. Because if they did, because if they did, and they attended a bar
where they sold any type of alcohol, then you were no longer labeled a Mexican
woman with respect. They treated you different. As if you were a bar woman.
Lisa:
Oh, I see.
Diane:
You got a label right away.
Lisa:
So, was it, was it like there were two categories of women and…
Diane:
Exactly.
Len:
Yeah.
Diane:
You were only allowed if the husband took you. But if you weren’t taken
then you didn’t step those grounds because you would give yourself a name
and then you no longer were respected.
Lisa:
So, you didn’t even leave the house unless your husband took you?
Len:
Yeah.
Nena:
Yeah.
Diane:
Yeah.
Tere nods.
Diane:
Exactly.
Nena:
Or, or you let him know “Can I, can I go to this place? I will be back
in this time.”
Lisa:
So, were women looked at as property?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Everyone nods.
Nena:
Exactly!
Diane:
You were property?
Nena:
Yeah.
Len:
Yeah.
Lisa:
Wow.
Len:
Would you like to live in those times? Thas why I said “No I won’t!”
Laughter breaks out.
Nena:
I do because my husband, my husband he was good husband. He, he never
did went to school. He never did know how to write and read, but he was
a good man, and he use to drink a lot. He was those persons that drink beer,
tequila, but never drugs. Never marijuana… None of those stuff because in
those times, they don’t use that kind of….
Lisa:
Yeah.
Nena:
But the tequila and brandy, uh beer, whatever. But he was a good husband
because he, he use to bring everything that we need at home. He use to take
us any place we want. It was… I like it because even if, if my husband was
that, that way, he, he grows, eh, he was respect with his dad, always loved
his dad and his mom, but he still loved me, and my children.
Lisa:
Yes.
Nena:
Yeah. Because you know when you, when you get good, good, um, uh, husband,
he always ask you “What you need? What we gonna do? What you want to do?”
Lisa:
Oh, oh, so he asked your opinion about things.
Nena:
Yeah. All the time. Even to my children. Uh, even to my children. Friday,
“You guys, where you wanna go? What you want to do?”
Lisa:
I see.
Nena:
Yeah.
Lisa:
That’s good. So, in other words, your husband didn’t treat you like property.
Nena:
No. No.
Lisa:
Okay. Okay, and how about you Tia? (Aunt)
Lisa addresses Tere.
Tere responds in Spanish.
Diane translates:
She wasn’t allowed to go to the grocery store. What she did is she had
to order it by phone. By then they already had a phone. The groceries was
brought to their home and, and she would, she wasn’t allowed to pay for it
either. Once my dad came off the truck, cause he was a truck driver, then
he would come and go sign wherever, and he would like post some credit, and
he would pay. But she never had to do any of that because there, there was
no reason for her to have to do that. Women then didn’t have the ability to
go to HEB or Alberston's like today.
Lisa:
But, but, but, but she couldn’t pay for it, and why was that?
Tere speaks in Spanish.
Diane:
Because she didn’t have any money in her control. The money was ran by
the man in the house. The men ran the money. So, she didn’t have money for
anything, other than to order. And so everything on her was on credit, because—I
mean not a credit card, but the person, my dad was known enough to know that
once he came, he would pay the bills. They knew not to ask her for any money
cause she never had ANY money.
Lisa:
I see.
Tere:
No feria. (no money)
Tere continues in Spanish.
Diane translates:
If she sewed something for somebody, they would give her two or three
bucks, she could hide it—her own little money. Then she would splurge on
her children and say “go get a Popsicle today” or something. But that’s
the only kind of money she ever had.
Lisa:
Wow.
Tere speaks in Spanish again.
Lisa:
What did she say?
Diane:
Before, she already knew the man that ran the store. She knew that that’s
the only thing she could do was whenever she needed anything was order it.
She never had the ability to go to the store.
Tere speaks again in Spanish.
Diane translates:
She would order everything she needed.
Lisa:
What would happen if you didn’t do that?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Diane translates Tere’s answer:
That she would have to wait till her dad came to try to bring her groceries,
but it always had to be a man.
Diane and Tere converse in Spanish.
Diane translates:
The oldest. The oldest of the family, the man and the woman, they could
bring her groceries. (Tere is referring to her aunt and her aunt’s husband
and this point.)
Diane:
They were the only ones.
Lisa:
Now what happened if, y’all disobeyed your husbands.
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Tere:
I don’t know…
Tere breaks into Spanish at this point.
Everyone laughs.
Diane translates:
She’s never tried. She couldn’t tell you that today.
The ladies all begin speaking at once.
Nena raises her voice:
I never, in my life I never stop to think about that.
Diane:
Because she never tried it.
Nena:
Because I never tried it.
Laughter breaks out.
Nena:
I didn’t have to! I didn’t have to!
Laughter again.
Lisa:
And how about you Tia Len?
Len:
Oh no! I was trying to be a, a… How do you call it right now? A new generation!
Everyone laughs.
Len:
Trying to change things.
Lisa:
Oh! Good for you!
Len:
I was trying to open the eyes…
Diane:
of people
Len:
of people. You know? So I said, when he told me “let’s go up the north
and” and I, and I was a smart. Why do he have to take me so far away? And
I have my parents over here. When I need something, who’s gonna look after
me, and who’s gonna look after my parents, if I go that far away?
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
That’s what I was thinking. I didn’t have that much education, but I say,
I was thinking of my parents, of me, and of my little children.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
And since he was a, he was a, he didn’t have no dad, he has his mom—uh,
his dad died I think when he was four years old. So, he didn’t know nothing
about being a dad. I said “what responsibility he’s gonna have of us, going
so far away?”
Lisa:
Yes.
Len:
I was thinking, I said “I’ll go just to San Antonio” I told him, cause
it’s only one hour, two hours, you know, from, from my parents. And we stay
there, I can still see my parents, and they can still take care of me if something
happens.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
So, that, uh that’s what… I said, “nooo, I can go to San Antonio, and
over there is lot of work you can start doing” and he said “yeah, you’re
right.” He said, “you’re saying right.” And I said “because I know that
over there up north they earn more money, but the rents costs much, and
it’s the same thing. You’re gonna be too far away. You’re gonna earn more
money, but you gonna spend more money. And then something happen to my parents
over here, we’re gonna spend more money, we’re gonna be in the traffic coming
this way, and something can happen to us and to my children.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
Yeah. So I said no “we stay here so I can take care of my dad and my mom
whenever they need me, and if I need them, I have them close—closer than
over there.” So he said “okay”. So when he came over here, when we move
over here (meaning San Antonio), I stay the first month with my sister—living
with her—till I found a rented house. And sure I found one right in the back
of her, house.
Lisa:
Oh.
Len:
That help me.
Laughter
Len:
Yeah. And I start, I live there for around…. How many years, two?
Diane:
Two or three years.
Len:
Two or three years. I had my baby, little baby girl. It was almost her
age, and they use to play over there. Had a lot of fun.
Diane:
By then, she already had one, two, three, four children.
Len:
Uh, huh. And, and it was nice over there, but, but then, uh, there was
this program for the poor people, and they, they were starting to sell houses
to the—new homes—for the poor people, you know….
Diane:
To give an opportunity.
Len:
Giving an opportunity to, for, uh, whatever he was earning they’ll sell
you the house.
Lisa:
Yeah. So, based on your income.
Len:
Yeah, based on your income, so, let’s go look for a home, and instead
of paying rent, we’ll go buy a home.
Diane:
Cause their home was a small one. It was a two bedroom, and she then had
a problem because she had had a daughter—at first she had had all sons—so
then she was looking for a three bedroom home, then.
Lisa:
And did they have anything like that ever in Cotulla? Were there any opportunities
to help…
Len:
Nothing!
Diane:
That was luxury for them when they came to San Antonio.
Len:
Over there it was just the business people, like where she use to buy
her groceries, it was the Garcia, uh, red stores, grocery stores, there
were three over there. Two of them were from the same owner. His name was
Armando Garcia. And the other one was, uh, they call him Naio, Garcia. Yeah.
He was the brother to Armando, and they have another grocery store. It was,
they were Mexican.
Tere adds a comment in Spanish.
Len:
Yeah. And the other brother, he had a furniture store. So they were, you
know, wealthy Mexican people over there, so they had those stores. And that’s
the only help we got from them. Cause they were Mexicans too.
Diane:
The fact that they were Mexicans gave them the ability to have credit.
Len:
Credit, you know, and….
Lisa:
Why? Did you find that the white people would not give you credit and….
Len:
No! Cause they don’t. They didn’t.
Diane:
Cause they never knew if you were going to earn enough to pay them.
Len:
Uh, huh.
Lisa:
Oh.
Len:
You see, so Cotulla, I think it was kind of, how do you…
Diane:
A prejudice little town.
Len:
Uh, huh.
Diane:
It took a long time for them to grow.
Lisa:
See, that’s…Tell me about that. Let’s, lets talk about the prejudices
in Cotulla. Let’s, let’s, uh… Tell me some things you remember about it
that were—now looking back, seeing, you know, “Hey! That was unfair.”
Nena:
Well…..
Diana breaks in and poses the question in Spanish.
Len:
Oh, yeah. And what the, what the, the, the law over there, like the Sheriff,
and like the, the… What was the brand new one? He was the Mayor, or what
was he?
Diane:
It was the Sheriff and the Judge.
Len:
I don’t know what the… He use to go and pick up, he went to use to go
and whoever did wrong, uh, they did something wrong out there—if they were
Mexican boys, they took em to jail, and they peeled their heads real ugly.
Lisa:
Oh! They cut their hair?
Len:
They cut their hair real ugly. They did, they did, they didn’t cut it
like they’re using right now. You know there are a lot of bald headed boys
that have good, nice haircuts. No. They give traskiladas here and there.
Ugly.
Len chops here hand at her scalp in various places.
Diane:
It was a punishment haircut.
Len:
Punishment!
Lisa:
Oh, to humiliate them.
Len:
Yeah, to humiliate them—ugly. That’s why my brother, that lived over there,
Samuel, he had, he use to hate them, cause they did it to him. Just for a
little thing he did. But if the, if white people do it, they didn’t do it
to them.
Diane:
They didn’t touch em. They just waited for them to be released.
Len:
They just put em to jail, but they didn’t get bald headed or nothing like
that—cause they were white people.
Lisa:
Did they ever hit anybody?
Len:
Yeah! If they get, sometimes they get, you know, if they say something
to them back or something. Yeah, they all did that. They use to hit em, the
people.
Lisa:
For talking back to them?
Len:
Yeah, cause, for talking back to them, something, but I, I didn’t heard
about doing that to the white people, but to the Mexicans, they surely did.
Diane:
Even if they questioned the authority they would get beat up.
Len:
Uh huh, they just stood there and sometimes they told them “and you better
say it was your fault” even if it wasn’t their fault, cause if you don’t,
you’re gonna get more in trouble. That’s why my brother, that went to the
prison, he said “well I had to tell them, cause if I didn’t do it they were
going to give me more years over there.”
Lisa:
Ugh. So….
Len:
So, so that, that’s the only brother that my dad had uh, you know, problems
with him. And he said “what did you say?? You weren’t the one that were!”
“Well, they told me to say that.”
Lisa:
So, he was innocent, but they told him to say that he did it.
Diane:
He didn’t have a choice if he wanted to….
Len:
He didn’t have a choice. But, you know why? And that’s why. Because they
knew that the other people from the other boy that had the, that had the
vehicle and everything, they had money.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
And I think they took money out of them, and my dad wasn’t that wealthy
so, so he couldn’t pay that much so, so they had to take that other one,
the one that didn’t have no money. That’s the way it was. Now, in these days,
Mexican people, over there, they’re speaking out and they’re something better,
and now Cotulla’s getting better.
Lisa:
And what do you think caused that to happen? What do you, what happened
in Cotulla that caused the people to begin to recognize that….
Len:
You, you know what it caused it to happen? The, the Mexican people start
finishing school,
Nena:
exposing more.
Len:
going to college, you know….
Diane:
getting educated, coming back and opening the law, and taking law into
their own hands…
Len:
And there have been, you know, Mexican people…
Diane:
And there are overpopulated Mexicans now. Now the Mexicans…
Len:
are taking…
Diane:
write the rules.
Lisa:
All right! So, so, okay now, are they, they… Does anyone know how the
white people responded when this started happening? I mean, you know, what…
When the change started taking place, how did the white people react to
it?
Len:
They’re getting out of Cotulla.
Diane:
They don’t live there.
Len:
No more. They don’t live…
Diane:
And the ones that do are the older people that have lived there all their
lives and they just stay there to die.
Len:
Yeah, yeah, and they’re...
Diane:
And they’re real quiet, and they’re in one little corner. I know, cause
I see it today.
Lisa:
So they’re still, it’s still segregated.
Len:
Yeah. Cause, now, if you go to where the white people use to live, it’s
full of Mexican people. Where this side that I told you no Mexicans go this
side, Mexicans to this side, the, the Mexicans to the south—I mean to the
east over there—and the whites over here to the west side of, of Cotulla.
Diane:
And now there’s Mexicans everywhere.
Len:
Now they’re all over.
Nena:
All over.
Diane:
You’re neighbor could be a Mexican.
Len:
Yeah.
Lisa:
Wow, and so…
Len:
And, and you should’ve see now the Mexican houses of the people over there.
You think they’re white people houses.
Lisa:
So they’re coming up, huh?
Len:
You see, you see Cotulla’s changing a lot.
Diane:
They took a stand.
Lisa:
Good for them.
Diane:
Education played a big part. Before, they didn’t allow the Mexicans, they
didn’t stress, or tell them how important education was, so whether they
wanted to go to school or not they didn’t get in trouble cause nobody wanted
them to prosper, until people started coming in and saying “no, you need
to prosper. You need education.” Because, they knew that at one point, when
they gathered enough information to be educated enough to know better, they
would move themselves, because they were hard workers at everything they
did.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
And, and the government started giving help to the people that need it.
And I think it was long before people didn’t knew.
Lisa:
They didn’t know. Yeah.
Len:
Just the ones that knew were taking advantage, and, and they were the
ones that had more.
Lisa:
Well, now, when the people, how did, uh, did uh, the school system in
Cotulla at that time—which I assume was probably run by white people….
Len, Nena and Diane, simultaneously:
Right.
Lisa:
Okay, did, did the school system make it difficult for Hispanics to get
into, to finish school…
Diane:
No. They allowed them to go, but they always knew that they weren’t going
to stay there long. And so they never got, like their parents never got
reprimanded, for example she (Tere) said she would only go one month out
of the whole year.
Lisa:
And they never contacted…
Diane:
So they never called the parents to say “why isn’t she in school, she’s
going to be fined” like today. They didn’t care. They were glad she didn’t
show up.
Lisa:
Now how about for the few Hispanics that did get into high school. What
was it like for them? Do any of you know?
Diane:
Tia, do you know of anybody that got past the ninth, tenth, eleventh,
twelfth grade in your age? Anyone that graduated?
Len:
Oh yeah, cause some of the boys that went with me when I was passing to
the fifth and they were passing the fifth—one of them became a Mayor. And
he was a Mexican.
Lisa:
He was the first Me, uh, mayor, wasn’t he?
Len:
Yeah. Zamora.
Diane
He was the first mayor.
Len:
Aldredosa Zamora….
Lisa:
The first Mexican mayor.
Len:
Uh, huh.
Lisa:
Okay. Now, now, what was high school like for… Did the high school students
notice, were they treated differently in high school than the Mexican high
school students….
Diane says something inaudible, then continues:
When they already gathered, because there was only very little people
that got to be, uh, ninth graders. So, then, they allowed the whites and
the Mexicans to go to school together.
Diane asks the other ladies if they know whether the whites and Mexicans
were treated differently in high school.
Diane adds:
I know none of y’all got there but, do you know like friends and family…
Len:
I, I , I don’t know, but uh, uh, uh, when I use to go to the football
games and everything, they still, they still have their section.
Diane:
Oh, okay.
Lisa:
What do you mean they had a section?
Len:
They, they, they didn’t, like, they didn’t sit a white one with a Mexican.
Like they use to.
Lisa:
So they had a separate section for Mexicans at football games?
Len:
Yeah, yeah.
Nena:
Yeah.
Len:
Everybody had a little section over there.
Diane:
See, remember, you didn’t see very many black people because they were
so close to Mexico, that the only thing you saw were Mexican and white, so
that was where the lines were drawn.
Lisa:
Yeah. Just like it was once drawn between the whites and the blacks.
Len:
Yeah. Like, now, when my boys do where going to the football and everything,
he, he has, they have, uh, white friends with them that goes over there to
my house and go “Oh can I have a taco of beans?” or something, you know,
like that.
Diane:
Oh, no! You didn’t see that back then!
Len:
uh, uh
Diane:
I don’t think the white, older people, the parents, would allow them—to
hang around with Mexican children.
Lisa:
Well, you know what? How did y’all feel about that?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Len:
Down. I feel down! You know, I feel down, cause I said, “Why? We’re people
like them, and, and we do lot of work for them and everything. Why do they
treat us like that?
Diane:
And Tia, (she addresses Nena) did it effect you? Did you care, like, if
they treated y’all different? Did it make you feel less of a person, or
did you just, like, not care?
Nena:
I don’t remember because I been living in Wisconsin for a long time.
Diane:
You went real young to Wisconsin.
Nena:
Thirty-eight years, and so… Well, there it’s different. I, there, there
they all together, blacks, whites, and, and Mexicans.
Lisa:
You know, that is one thing I’ve learned recently is that this is a southern
thing.
Len:
Yeah.
Diane:
Yes, it is.
Lisa:
This racism, and the sexism, and theses things—it’s something that happens
in the south and you don’t see it so much in the other parts of the country.
Len:
And I don’t know why cause, Mexico is real close to us, Mexico, and they
said that Mexico was the owner of…
Diane:
of our land here.
Lisa:
Yes.
Len:
And, and they’re more… I don’t know, with us, with us, that they think
that we can get there with them.
Diane asks her mother, Tere, if she experienced racism as a child.
Tere:
No.
Nena:
I think it didn’t matter to her.
Len:
I don’t think she feel it, cause she thought, I think she thought that
her husband was Americano, so…
Diane:
White. See, okay, she says she didn’t feel… My aunt says my mom says it
didn’t matter to her, but I think because when she married into my dad’s
family, since they had the last name Patterson, then they were treated sometimes
fairly, with the whites, so she really didn’t feel it. And since she lived
with her in-laws, she didn’t feel the pressure of, of, uh, their being a
problem between Mexican and white.
Lisa:
I see.
Len:
Because she never got out much.
Lisa:
Yeah, she was always at home.
Diane:
So it really didn’t matter to her.
Lisa:
Did y’all ever feel that there was a similarity between, between the racist
views and the sexist views? In other words, that you were lesser because
you were a woman, did it ever seem familiar to you, like uh, like did it
seem to be a lot like being lesser because you were a Hispanic? Did you ever
notice a correlation between the two?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Len:
Well, in those times, the way we were treated, I wish I was a white lady.
Diane:
Oh, you would rather have been a white lady.
Len:
They were treat right.
Diane:
They were treated differently.
Len:
very differently
Lisa:
Like, what were some of the differences you noticed?
Len:
Cause, since my husband start working in the ranches, there was this couple
that they white people. And the man took up all right in the morning, this
man that we live over there in the ranch—his name was Donald Jordan—and
he has offices over there in Cotulla. He traveled from Millet to Cotulla
every morning. And he can go to his office, and come in the night to his
house. His wife can go anywhere she wanna go. Sometimes she come to San
Antonio cause she has her mom over here in San Antonio. And she went and
telled me, eh, “Tomorrow I ain’t gonna be here. Go and feed my dog and do
this and do that.” And she can come and stay over here (San Antonio) with
her mom two or three days, and…
Diane:
She didn’t get a label.
Len:
She didn’t get a label.
Lisa:
But if a Hispanic woman did that she would be labeled as…
Len:
Yeah, yeah.
Nena:
Yeah, yeah.
Diane:
Yeah.
Lisa:
as an indecent woman.
Nena:
Yes.
Diane:
Exactly.
Len:
Yeah, cause she came alone.
Lisa:
Oh, I see. But it was acceptable for women, uh, white women to go alone.
Len:
Yeah.
Diane:
And we think back, and we, I’m sure we’ve all seen the movie Roots, you
saw then. Remember, the one lady went into town, got her groceries and stuff,
and she was allowed to go on her own. And, of course, if you had seen the
black woman go into town on her own, then she could be for sale.
Lisa:
That’s right. I remember that. That’s right.
Diane:
It’s almost the same thing—a stigma.
Lisa:
You know what? It almost seems that… and do y’all, I don’t know if y’all
see it this way or not… I’m not suppose to ask you leading questions, but…
I can’t help it. If, do y’all seem to notice that it’s almost as though
woman who are minorities are considered not as upstanding as the other women?
In other words, they can’t be trusted, they’re, they have more of a tendency
to stray into, you know, inappropriate behavior than the white women…
Diane:
They were never given…. Oh. I see your question.
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Len:
Uh, huh. Uh, huh. That’s when I start opening my eyes! Eh, eh, cause I
was like that. I didn’t go nowhere without telling him.
Lisa:
Yes.
Len:
I use to do like that, and, and, and then I said “Why am I in the prison?
Why, if I don’t do nothing wrong when I go do my things, why do I suppose
to be just inside over here—doing what I don’t suppose to be doing—when,
when I need something to do, waiting for somebody to do it for me?” I said
“No, no, this is going to stop. I’m gonna go do whatever I wanna do…”
Diane:
“And call me what they want to call me!”
Len:
Uh, huh! “And I gonna be at my house when I suppose to be in my house,
but I gonna do whatever I wanna do!” Cause I know I doing what I need to do.
I’m not doing nothing wrong. Cause I don’t have to be afraid of nobody!
Lisa:
And did you get any problems from anybody about that? Did people talk
and say things?
Len:
I don’t know. If they do, I don’t care.
Lisa:
So you didn’t pay any attention?
Len:
I didn’t put any attention, cause they can, if they say that I was doing
bad, and if they have proof that I, I was doing it bad, to come and tell
me—in front of him. Yeah.
Lisa:
So, was it kind of assumed that women, white women, wouldn’t do anything
wrong, but Mexican women would?
Len:
I don’t know. That’s what I say. Cause I, uh, some, some… That’s why I
start my thinking. “Why can they trust her, that I see and I hear things of
her?” I don’t go from what I hear, I go from what I see—if I see. If I don’t
see it, I just… If they ask me something, I tell the people “I don’t know.
I heard that but I don’t know if, if it’s true or not, cause I didn’t see
it. So, I don’t have nothing to say about it.” When I see it, I can say, cause
I can’t even tell “yeah, you were like this, and you were in this corner
and you were in there, and I can see it.” I can say it because I saw it.
But if I didn’t see it, how am I, why am I gonna be talking about it, if
I didn’t see it? Just if somebody else tell me? Maybe that person is lying,
or something! So that’s why I don’t go by that. I see for what I see. I say
for what I see. If I don’t see nothing, I don’t say nothing. If they ask
me, I don’t know. That’s why they told me, but I don’t know if it’s true
or not. So…
Lisa:
Okay.
Len:
So, that go, and that’s why I said no. Cause I use to be scared of him!
When, when he tell me not to go, and he, eh, he, and especially when he
was drunk, and he came home drunk. And if he wanted to, to fight with me
or something. I was glad when I live behind her house, cause when I saw
him, that he was very drunk, he was coming fighting, I run to her house
and leave all my children over there in the house—alone with him. But I
rather run to her house and don’t start a fighting or anything that my children…
Diane:
So she would let the kids sleep and he would just go to sleep.
Len:
Uh, huh.
Diane:
And that would be the end of that.
Lisa:
Oh. So if you were there he would start a fight and the kids would wake
up…
Len:
Yeah, and…..
Diane:
Cause she had here liberty and was going here and there, and he would
question where she had been.
Len:
And I said what I gonna ruin my children’s, uh, dream, sleep, and everything,
making a big fuss out of it when I can just run through the back, and go
to my sister’s house, and went “Tere, Tere, open the door.”
laughter
Len:
and went stick out with all her children that was over there on the floor
asleep, and I just went and lay down over there. In the morning I get up
and went to my house.
Lisa:
Wow.
Len:
You see? Over here you’re learning things that you don’t think that I
went through. But if my God knows what I went through, what’s the reason
that, that anybody will…
Everyone begins talking at once.
Len:
They should know cause, like I was telling her, cause you know, if something
happen to my husband, if something happen to me, my husband can talk with
your husband and say these things that he thinks about me. Cause, you know,
when they die, I think it’s not too good to say lies, and say “He was a
good husband! He never did this to me and that…” Cause, you know, God knows
that he really make bad things to you that he didn’t suppose to do—with
you. And, and what you do to him. Cause, sometimes, I tell him, “I’m not
the same that I use to be. Now I think the devil’s get to me some. So, you
better watch out!”
Everyone laughs and begins talking at once.
Diane breaks in:
Now she’ll speak up for herself. There was a time when she didn’t. Now
she stands for herself.
Len:
So now that he knows me, that I’m taking my stand, he’s been good to me.
And he’s stop his drinking, cause he went coo coo when he drink, and, and
everything that. But I think when, when, when he die, everybody’s gonna say
“Yeah, but my Tia Len was mean with him, or…”
Great laughter breaks out.
Len:
But the thing is they don’t know what I have over here in my heart—what
he did to me before, when he was first, you know….
Diane:
When you were young.
Len:
Young
Lisa:
Yeah
Len:
But anyway, I tell him “Those things pass already. I forgive you. And
whatever I did to you…” cause he HATES for me to go to the stores. “Why
do you have to go to the store?” I like to go and buy my bargains when there’s
eh special. I can’t go only on Saturdays! Maybe there’s a coupon, a one-day
only coupon, and I can go and get that bargain! That’s why I go. And he
want me to go just one time and get everything, like the ladies their time,
and just go get everything one time.
Diane:
Like back then.
Lisa:
Yeah.
Len:
And I tell him “If I were rich, I would do that” cause now I hate to go
to stores. Cause, you know, many things is happening. I get scared, to go
to store, but I said “I have to manage my money. I have to go and buy the
specials and, and use my coupons and everything.”
Lisa:
So you think he still has a little bit of that mindset, from…
Diana:
Oh, yes.
Len:
Yeah, yeah.
Diane:
Yeah.
Len:
So, so, now he, he knows and sometimes that I don’t go, he said “ay you
haven’t gone to st… look at this barata [sale] over here.”
Laughter breaks out.
Len:
Now he’s thinking about it.
Lisa:
Yeah. Now he’s changing.
Len:
Yeah, he’s changing. Cause you know why? Because I tells him, “you know
what, what I’m gonna do just for you to be satisfied?”
Diana:
“I’m gonna buy everything expensive!”
Len:
No. I don’t tell him…. “I’m gonna make a list, that I need this, and I
need that. And you go and get it! Where ever you wanna buy it. Just bring
it.”
Laughter breaks out.
Lisa:
Okay. Let me see. I’ve got a couple more questions and then I’m gonna,
I’m gonna let y’all finish. First I wanna ask each one of y’all, what are
some of your fondest memories from your childhood, uh, when you were growing
up in Cotulla?
Diane poses the question in Spanish.
Diane tells Nena to answer first.
Nena:
Okay. My, mine, it was that I use to stay with my grandma Friday, Saturday
and Sunday, in Cotulla, in front of the Plaza Florita, and eh every weekend—all
Saturday or Sunday—eh, eh, I have to go to the dance, because it was just
across the street, and my favorite thing it was dance.
Diane:
Today it’s still the same thing.
Nena:
I go, I, I use to go Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And I use to dance since
I got there until I say “Good-bye!” to all my friends, all, all the people
in there.
Lisa:
So, that, that was just like uh, uh, you know, a traditional thing in
Cotulla, that—and it’s still happening, you say—that every weekend they
had dances in the plaza there.
Diane:
Yeah.
Nena:
Yeah. And the good thing is there, that, that there are too many people,
and we were too many relatives from both sideses, from, from my dad, and,
and my mom, that they use to have anniversaries. They use to have weddings.
We use to get together, so, so we gotta have a party for everything. For
everything! For our anniversaries, our weddings, and things like that. So,
so, we all busy Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And, and, uh, wherever we have
time—because we don’t have that much time for movies, because we were more
interested in the dance, and, uh, things like this—so, get together and see
this relative and that relative, coming from San Antonio, from Dilly, and
from Pearsal, uh, uh, all over there—the little cities.
Diane:
around Cotulla
Nena:
Yeah. So, so, for me, that was my best part.
Lisa Addresses Tere:
And how about you?
Diane poses the question again in Spanish for her mother, Tere.
Tere answers in Spanish and the ladies all begin speaking at once.
Diane:
She use to love that when she came into town she would stay with her grandma.
They would work. They would sell raspas, and things like that.
[Raspas are snow cones.]
Lisa:
Oh, you would sell raspas?
Nena:
Tacos, tamales, enchiladas!
Diane:
They would sell stuff from a stand, and she use to enjoy that.
By this point, all the ladies are speaking excitedly at once.
Diane continues translating her mother’s words:
She use to see so many people. It wasn’t just being stuck at home doing
nothing. She could see the whole town.
Lisa addresses Len:
Ah! And how about you Tia?
Len:
The same thing cause, cause I was born in the fifteen of September, that’s
why I became uh, a good dancer!
Len becomes sheepish and begins to giggle. All the ladies laugh very loudly.
Len continues:
Yeah, cause they… my grandmother said…. She had a stand where they use
to sell tacos, enchiladas, tamales, sodas, uh, hamburgers, everything.
Lisa:
And this stand was where?
Len:
In the Plaza Florita. Right in front of her house.
Lisa:
Where they had the dances.
Len:
Uh, huh. Right in front of her house.
Diane:
They all have the same thing in common. They all love the same thing.
Len:
She went and build a stand over there… The times they use to celebrate,
the thirteen, the fourteen, the fifteen, the sixteen and the seventeenth—in
September. Whole week!
Diane:
A fiesta.
Len:
And I was born, and the Grito, when the Grito was the fifteen of September,
she, she was selling over there, and, and, and my dad came “Ma, mom, momma,
you gotta go home, cause my wife is having the pains.” She was going to
have me.
Diane:
She was the midwife and she had to deliver the baby.
Lisa:
Oh, so since she was the midwife….
Len:
Yeah, she was the mid…. So she put to her other daughters-in-law and everybody
to help over there at work, and she went home, with my mom, to bring me.
The dance was barely starting at eight o’clock, and I was crying, “Oh! I
want to go dancing!”.
Great laughter breaks out.
Len laughs very loudly
Len:
I wanna go dance the….
Len begins singing the song in Spanish.
Again, laughter breaks out.
Lisa:
Go ahead and finish it!
Len begins speaking again:
And, and since I start learning how to dance when I was a little girl
like this, like four years, they use to pay me! Those Armando Garcia and
Naio, and everything, they give me a dollar to dance the Cumbia, and the
Cha-cha-cha, Cha-cha-cha!
Len exhibits the dance from her chair as she speaks and everyone laughs.
Len:
And all, I remember…
Lisa asks about the men who paid Len:
And these were the musicians?
Len:
Yeah, and Victor, Victor my brother, the one that still live over there
in Wisconsin, he use to, to, to dance the Bambo on me, and, and, and they
use to pay me one dollar. And they pay him two dollars!
Len show disapproval of this fact by her tone of voice and facial expressions.
Everyone laughs.
Len:
Because he was dancing with more than me!
Nena:
He use to like the Cha-cha-cha.
Len:
Uh, huh. Cause, cause he, he, he went to, you know…. He was big, and I
was little!
Diane:
So they gave him more money.
Len:
Uh huh. That’s why. And, and, whenever he heard a Bomber, a Bambo, and
he go over there and he take me to dance so they can give him two dollars.
Laughter breaks out again.
Len:
Uh huh, cause he really know how to dance the Bambo and all that. And,
and he teach me how to, to dance those things. So I was a, you know… Ooh,
the dance—whenever my dad didn’t want take me to the dance, when I use to
go to the ranch, and I was, I will cry all night, and in the morning my eyes
were red and everything. And then my father feel sorry. He said “No, I’m
gonna take you next. We gonna take you.” So, that’s what we like—the dance.
Diane:
the dance
Len:
the dance
Lisa:
Okay…
Len:
Movies, I didn’t, I didn’t like that much movies.
Teresa Tellez Patterson as an infant, at left, and Elena Tellez Santos as a child, at right. Notice the pins at the neckline of Elena's dress. Elena said that her mother, Guadalupe, made all of her children's clothing extra large in order to make them last.
ANALYSIS
I learned many things on the numerous occasions that I interviewed these
three charming, wise and resilient ladies. I learned about the many interesting
and resourceful ways that poor people in south Texas made ends meet, and
how they dealt with illness and other hardships. I gained a more comprehensive
understanding of the lives of sharecroppers, farm laborers, and their families.
I also obtained a better understanding of my own family and what many of
our little quirks were born of. Most importantly, though, I finished this
project knowing that I had never truly understood the plight of the poor
and the oppressed. Hearing the ladies tell poignant stories of the sexism,
racism and poverty that they had endured, of how those inequities made them
feel, and of their struggles to overcome such hardships, was a very humbling
experience for me. It stirred a strange anger in me--an anger with no human
target--a bizarre frustration with a social structure that I can now see
more clearly, yet still cannot understand. Why do we in this country continuously
make heroes of self-serving men who crush the disadvantaged for personal
gain? Why do we immortalize them with honor? Why do we lie, covering their
dirty secrets along with the memories of those whose lives were drained by
them? From Columbus to the modern day tycoon, we worship men who prey on
those who are weaker- who suck the very life from their bodies for money,
power and glory. We make it easier for them by covering the evidence of
their sins with warm, fuzzy myths of "trailblazing" and "progress." Who
progresses, though? Certainly not those who perform the labor. And who
truly blazes the trail? Not those who profit.
While still far short of what it should be, the level of understanding
that I reached while working on this project could never have been achieved
by reading books. Seeing the tearstained faces and hearing the laughter of
those who have lived it have made a permanent impact on me. Gathering the
information has led me down paths of truth that I never would have traveled
otherwise. This has truly been one of the greatest learning experiences of
my life. I can think of no drawbacks to this learning experience, except
that I am having great difficulty ending it. The more I research, the more
questions are raised. I feel compelled to continue, as though there is some
enormous truth that I still have not found. I am driven to dig deeper, and
to learn more. Perhaps this project will never end. It has created a historian--one
who is determined to resurrect the truth. And that, I believe, can only
be a good thing.
ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY
The La Salle County Historical Commission. History of Cotulla . Historic District at http://historicdistrict.com/. A brief summary, including names of prominent founders, dates, and significant places in Cotulla's history. The page includes a photo of the first map of Cotulla, and a circa 1886 photo of Front Street, block 4. The writer gives a description of the town's beginnings, and notes prominent business owners and investors of the time. However, the writer falls grossly short of balance by the complete omission of the Hispanics who contributed to the founding and growth of Cotulla. The reader who does not know better is left to believe that there were and are no Hispanics in the area. Furthermore, the writer disregards the plight of the poor, failing to mention the work of the men and women who were the lifeblood of the area--the mainly Hispanic laborers who made it possible for the community, which relied of farming and ranching as the basis of its economy, to thrive.
The La Salle County Historical Commission. History of La Salle and Mc Mullen Counties . Historic District at http://historicdistrict.com/Genealogy/LaSalle/history.htm. A historical account of the La Salle County area, from 1716 to current. Also includes an account of the history of farming and ranching in La Salle County, including the names of past prominent farm and ranch owners and their decedents. But, again, the writer omits any mention of the cheap labor that insured the finical success of the elite who possessed enormous amounts of farm and ranch land. The page displays a very nice photo of the first courthouse built in Cotulla.
The La Salle County Historical Commission. La Salle County Records . Historic District at http://historicdistrict.com/Genealogy/LaSalle/history.htm. The La Salle County Historical Commission actually does a very good job on this one. All sorts of records can be accessed here, including: 1870 La Salle Census, 1880 Census Index, 1880 La Salle Census, 1900 Census Index, 1900 La Salle County Census, Confederate Pensions, Texas Death Index, County Lookups, La Salle Marriage Index, Obituary Index, Obituaries, Probate Index, and WWI Discharges.
The La Salle County Historical Commission. La Salle County Cemetaries . Historic District at http://historicdistrict.com/Genealogy/LaSalle/history.htm. This is another winner. There are twelve La Salle County cemeteries listed. One may view lists of the names, or simply use a searchable database. It was very helpful to me in learning where relatives are buried, and even birth and death dates.
TexasEscapes.com. Small Texas Towns Cotulla, Texas . http://www.texasescapes.com/default.htm. There is not very much information here, but there are some great photos. Be sure to check out some of the other Texas towns while you are there. You can find some very interesting places you never heard of.
US Census 2000. Gateway to Census 2000 . http://www.census.gov./ This is a great place to find vast information concerning people, business, geographics, etc... There is even a historical section that goes all the way back to 1790.
Return to the History of Cotulla