TRANSCRIPTION
When did you join the military?
I joined the military when I was 17.
Why did you want to join?
Well, there was a war going on, the Japanize had bombed Hawaii, and also the war was going on in Europe. And I just thought it was my business to get into the military.
Why did you choose the army?
Ha-ha, that is a very amusing question. I went up to the Naval aviation station up in Chicago for the us navy, I was going into flying school, flying training for the us navy, so I got up there and took the exams, and everything like that and passed them. Physical and passed them, then they was looking at my mouth. My teeth, and they said well you have overbite on your teeth. And in our oxygen equipment we had something that your teeth had to go together correctly, you couldn’t have overbite. So I said okay, so, they said you can’t join the Navy. So I went home to Indianapolis and I said well I am going to go to Write Patterson’s air force bases army air corps base, I went over there, took my exams, and they said well, you got a, well we will take ya but you have got to get a tooth filled. (Laughs). So I went over to Indianapolis, got my tooth filled, and went back to Paterson, they said fine, when you become 18 we will give you a call. The 24th of April I turned 18, and the 15th of May 1943 I was active duty for the army, army air corps. The army air corps sent me to, well let’s see it was fort Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis, was the rendezvous point. Then we took a train I think it was down to ST. Louis Missouri and it was in Jefferson barracks, it was the army infantry basic training. So that’s where I went, down to Jefferson barracks. And it was a piece of cake to me really. Because I had in jr ROTC at arsenal Loading...technical school, tech school, and I was corporal in the infantry. Laughs. It was a snap. So that where we went first, that was my first assignment
What was the first airplane you ever flew?
The first airplane that I flew was a Porterfield or Taylorcraft, it was at Michigan state college where we went up there for some preflight training, it was either a Porterfield or a Taylorcraft. In then I think we got 10 hours in it. Then we went down to san Antonio, to Kelly army air force base and went down there for what you call classification, and there you were classified, they gave you all kinds of tests, written and physical and you were either classified as a pilot, navigator, or a bombardier .I was fortunate and was classified as a pilot. That’s what I wanted to do. Everybody wanted to be a pilot. Pilot training was almost a year, and navigator and bombardier was much less, a matter of 6 months or less. And those guys were lieutenants at 19 years old. Laughs. And we were aviation cadets, going through the pilot training, and we were 19 year old second lieutenants when we graduated. Laughs, that was pretty good, it was.
Where did you spend your year of training?
Well basically when we went to Kelly, then we went across the street to the other side of Kelly, it was called preflight training. You learned about code, you learned about flying regulations, all those things about flying. You learned about engines and everything like that. That was preflight training it was all book learning. And then when we left Kelly, we went to Coleman, Texas, for primary flying in the PT-19 and it was a single engine, open cockpit airplane. And it was a lot of fun.
Did you get a lot of hours in that plane?
Well you only got so many hours in it, maybe 70 hours or something like that. Then i graduated from that, and I went down to Brady Texas for BT-13's and it was a much bigger airplane, had a more powerful engine, and you went through your basic flying school there, and you got your first under the hood or instrument training. They put you under the hood and you couldn't see outside but you could look at the instruments.
And you were actually flying the airplane with the hood over the canopy?
Yeah, yeah you were flying, cause you had your instructor pilot, he was in the backseat, or wherever, and he was doing the flying visually, and then when we got back in there he would turn it over to us and he told us what to do. Laughs, and that was very interesting. And we flew formation flying and all that stuff there. I was there for about four months. And about military schools, I wanted to go to a military school but I never did. And I read about all the wars, in world war one about the pilots and everything like that. And I would go downtown to the soldiers and sailors monument, at the pictures and everything like that and I was just a little kid! And I read those books. And down at Brady, during primary, there was an incident, my instructor and I got along very well, I think I was a pretty good pilot, and he showed me how to jump a fence with an airplane. He had a gate going in to his house and so we landed and went up to his house, and got ready to go, so we got in there, and he said now you just do what I tell you to do. I want you to drop the flaps when I tell you. So we started going down this road, and when we came up to the gate he said drop the flaps and I dropped the flaps and we went zip-up right over that gate! Laughs. So we were flying then we eased down the flaps again. Laughs. This instructor and I we were really good, we did all kinds of stuff, ha-ha. I got 77 hours at Brady in the bt13.
Now we went down to foster field at Victoria, Texas, and that's advanced flying school. It was an AT6. Now the single engine pilots went to Victoria, and the multi-engine pilots went to other basses. And they were AT10's or something like that. And I trained in them many years later, or a few years later.
Did you get too choose if you were going to fly single or multi engine planes?
No, you were assigned! You got there because you made it, if they didn't want to send you to single engine, they sent you to multi engine.
Was there any preference between which kind of plane, single or multi engine, that the pilots wanted to fly?
Well basically, well really the shorter guys went to the single engine and your bigger guys went to multi engine. And I think that had something to do with it. Laughs, I was 140 pounds.
I got roughly 120 hours in the advanced flying school, in the single engine. So that gave me a total hours of 262.54
After graduating from advanced flying school where were you sent?
Well that's what I am getting to, foster field, we graduated, and went to Denver, Colorado, as a co-pilot on B-24's. We were training the flight engineers for the B-29's that dropped the A-Bombs.
What did the flight engineers do?
They ran the engines and stuff like that, the pilot flew it but the flight engineer would do everything, and make sure everything was right and everything, and working right. The pilot manipulated it but the flight engineer kind of watched everything, and if something went wrong the pilot would go through emergence procedures and get everything right, laughs, ya that's what it was.
Okay, now in Denver I flew a Waco, that's a biplane, for an hour 45 min. then in July we were down in San Antonio now, I flew some L-2's, for about 10 or 12 hours of the l2 that was over in Austin, San Antonio. Then I flew down to Melvin, Texas, to my girlfriend, Natalie. And I flew her in a veronica. And I flew a PT-17 at bright wood, Indianapolis. And then when I was going to college at Terrahook I flew some 40hp cubs, as a student down there I flew those. So anyway, that's the things I did right after flying school, but the rest of my hours will be in the B-24 and we will go through all that next.
While I was at Foster field, I was the highest ranking aviation cadet on the field, I was a cadet cornel.
How did you get promoted to that rank?
They just made me. And I had it for most of the time I was there, but I was flying on a high altitude night mission and I had hit my checkpoints just fine, but I made a mistake somewhere and I missed foster field and I went passed it, now this is at two o'clock in the morning, I went out to the gulf of Mexico, this is at night, and I said 'there is something wrong here' now here is where the good Lord took care of me. I noticed that it was very smooth, and I said 'I am over the gulf of Mexico because over the land you have a little (uses his had to indicate that when flying over land there is a slight shudder in the air plane). That's the only thing I knew I was over the Gulf of Mexico. So I said 'oh my gosh', and well the training was that if you ever got out over the Gulf of Mexico just head north. And I did. And there were certain things you were supposed to see, I saw none of them. There were night lines because it was kind of foggy, and everything and I couldn't see them. And I said 'my gosh' so I looked around and I said well there is a light over there, so I said 'well I will go over there'. And I flew over to the light and I dove down to a football field to see what the name of the city was, and I it was 'visitors' and 'home'. So I was like shoot'. oh my gosh' I don't know what I am going to do, and so I just climbed on up about that time I get this cough cough , the engine is dying, I am out of fuel. So I look down there, and well I trimmed the airplane up so it will fly strait and level, and I looked down and my gosh those are big trees down there! And oh my gosh I am going to have to get out of this airplane, I buckled my parachute and everything like that, hooked up my harness, stood up in the airplane, then sat back down! You're going to have to jump out of this airplane, so I stepped out on the wing and dove off! And then I opened my parachute going straight down. Eeh gads! It flipped me like no body's business! And anyway I got settled down and looked down and my gosh those are great big rocks down there! And all of a sudden shooop! I am in a tree! And I am in this tree and by gosh and you got your parachute straps right here and hear, (motions where the leg straps would be), and I said man I am hurting this is killing me so undid one of the leg straps and oohh it did not feel any better, and I said uhh, I am going to un do the other on, so I un did it. And I am hanging there and I said man, well I don't know how high I am, so I am just going to drop down. I dropped down about two feet! Laughs. Si I said oh boy, shoot, so I collected my thoughts and said well I have got to get out of here, so I started walking, and there were trees and stuff like that but I came around and saw something great big and white. And I said what's that, it was my parachute. I had made a complete circle. So I said I am going to stop this so I picked a star and I started crawling and walking and I ran into a fence, I went down the fence, and then I came to a sheep trail, and I followed that sheep trail and it ran into a little road. And I am walking, and man it just got clear all of a sudden. And I said I had better go see what it is. So I crawled over and there was a creek. This was a high bank, the road went by a creek. And I said well it's a good thing I didn't walk over that! Laughs. Now this is two, three, four o'clock in the morning, it's now about five o'clock in the morning it's still dark, and so I followed this road and I came upon a house. And I said "hey is anybody home!" And some colored people said yeah, and I said "I need to get to a telephone" "I need to make a telephone call''. And they said "well go down to the oil well, go down there". So I wandered down the road and came to an oil well and I said "I need to get a telephone" and they said well go over to this guy's house over there he has got a telephone. So I go over there and talk to the people, and oh my gosh I am wet and all that so I am a straggling little guy, here I am only 19. Laughs. Anyway they say okay and I call down to Huston Ellington air force base. And then they came out and got me. The people there they fed me breakfast and let me clean off my shoes and everything like that, and I laid down on a divan. Pretty soon here comes the guys from Ellington, they got a nurse and a doctor and a guy driving the car. They said "get in there". And they didn't say too much and I didn't say too much to them! And they said how you feeling and I said I am okay, yeah I am in good shape. They didn't even give me a physical! Laughs, so I go on down to Ellington, and get in there and they call down to my base and tell them where I am and they say "well we want you to write out what happened" so I wrote out the whole thing, told em about everything like that, so I get back to the base and get me in there and they say "well your no longer cadet cornel, your cadet private". Laughs. And they said "now we want you to take a check ride" I said okay, so we go out, I solute the captain who was going to give me the check ride, he said "get in and I will tell you what to do". So I got in, started up, taxi out and he said "I want you to do this" he had me do everything, a shawn dell, I am doing loops, I am doing maximum performance, I am doing all kinds of aerobatics. He said 'let's go ahead and land'. So we landed, he told be okay, go talk to your instructor. I went and talked to the instructor and he said they want you to go out and talk to the instructor pilot. So okay, I had to do another check ride. I go out start up and did the same thing. Get back down he said, okay I got back down. "Okay now tonight I want you to take out an airplane tonight, and they want you to go to a rotating beacon out there a hundred miles out or something like that. Hit that rotating beacon and come back". So I go out and I hit that rotating beckon and come back, and the next day "okay go on back down the line" so I go back and I start flying again.
Another poor ole guy had a check ride and they washed him out, because couldn't fly really. They washed him out, and I graduated as a second lieutenant.
Before the plane went down did you have a radio to call a base with?
I couldn't get anybody, our radios, if I had an instrument ship I could have turned on the instruments buy we only had command radio, I tried to call everybody, but no one heard me. So anyway, I couldn't, since it was not an instrument ship when I found out I was out over the gulf, I would have turned on the instrument, because we were qualified to do that, and we could hone in on a station and get back and land at the base. But we didn't have the radio capacity, it was not and instrument ship. I called everybody
Anyway so we went on up to Denver, Colorado and I was a copilot on a B-24. So they call me up and said for me to go out to a certain airplane and be the copilot on this plane. I had never even been inside a B-24! So I get out there, and I get in the copilot seat and talked to the pilot and he said go ahead and start reading the checklist for me, so I start reading it, they get a call to the pilot asking "what is your copilot's name?" "Arvin". "Send him back!" "He has never been in a B-24!" Laughs, so I went back. And then I was assigned a B-24 and was a co-pilot, but I was being trained and everything like that.
Well a funny thing happened to us, we had to take the same training as the flight engineers were going through, we didn't like that, and we kind of sleft off. Well the word got out and the cornel called all seven of us and lined us up in front of his desk. And said "lieutenants, your assigned to be co-pilots, and you are to take the training that the flight engineers, it your training. Get with it!" and he told us "I will get you the best job I can, but do your damn job or you will have problems!" Laughs, we ran right out of there and got back to what we were supposed to be doing! We were all only 19 years old!
Anyway he got us a job, we went over to fly twin engine, AT-10, and we were now all instructor pilots, Training Brazilians pilots. We were training them at Waco, lack land army air force base. We had a time, we had a time! Because we were all single engine fighter pilots and we enjoyed it! Laughs. But anyway, we graduated from Waco, and they sent us down to Randolph air force base as unassigned pilots, so we went down to scheduling every day to see what kind of assignment we were going to get. During that time we were flying the Bt-13 and At-6 at Randolph. And we would go down there for several days in a row, and asked what came in "well they only want twin engine pilots". That's fine, we had twin engines. "but you also need four engine qualified, you're not eligible" so we went back a few days later and we told that guy "you get us something out of here or we are going to work you over!" and we meant it! So, P-47's at foster field! Back where I started! And we were flying the P-47, and oh we were in hog heaven! I'll tell you what flying that, quite a job! They were getting ready to send us to a regular training base, we were just getting time in the air plane. We might have even stayed at that base but, they came out one day and said "well fellas you're going to Germany". What do you mean we are going to Germany? We're not going to fighter school? "No". Well what are we going to do? "You're going to be a TAC officer" TAC officer? That was the lowest form of lieutenant that we had to deal with going through flying school. Are we going to be able to fly? "No we don't think your be able to". I said I am out of here good bye! We went over to our separation center in Indiana, and we went out, but in there, we were getting out and these guys were fussing and moaning and groaning but I said 'I am going to stay in the reserves'. Because what i went through getting my wings I am not going to give them up. I am going to stay in the reserves, and I did, which was a smart move.
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If you had taken the job as TAC officer what would your job have been?
You would be handling personnel problems, sitting behind a damn desk, not even flying. That was the key question.
So anyway, I stayed in the reserves, that's what we did. Anyway my dad was in the navy, he was a Seabee out in the south pacific. And when he came home he was too cold in Indiana, he said I am going somewhere, and we went down to San Angelo, Texas right down near Melvin and Natalie was there and I got out of school and went down there went to school, and my dad bought a plant, he was in the construction business, wood industries. And so I was going to school and working for him. And he said "I am out of here" and about that time, I had been dating my wife, and we decided we were going to get married. And he wanted me to use my G.I. bill to become a rancher, so okay you come down and use your G.I. bill, I got money, and I was being a rancher. That's when we moved to Melvin and got in the ranching business. But I was still in the reserves I was stationed at Goodfellow and I was flying B-25's there, and I was a flight test maintenance officer. So basically I was a test pilot, for the guys who would work on the B-25's and I would go out and test them, take off the red crosses and put them back in where the student pilots were flying the B-25's. Any problem the plane would have they would fix, and then I would test hop it, and I did that for years. And I think I put 500 hours in the B-25.
Then we went from good fellow to Abilene, and that was a jet base, Webb air force base. I got assigned to that base. And I flew the jets, the T-33, I was known as the operations officer. I flew the missions nobody wanted to do. Really, which, was as an operations officer that was fine! I flew all over the United States, I would go out and pick up an airplane that need to be test hopped, I would go out and test hop it, and fly back home. Or I would go out to write Paterson or something like that to pick up parts or critical, or deliver a message or something or some reason I would go. I flew all over Texas, out to California, and everything like that and it was real fun! It was all high altitude jet flying. And I also got some chopper time, which scared me to death. Because the guys up there, this was an air/ sea rescue chopper, in case a plane went down or something like that they would go out and rescue the guy or something like that. So they let me fly that thing, that thing, it's entirely different, man, but we would go out and, I was in there with them, and we would go out and chase coyotes. And the coyote would be winded and we would get out of the chopper and kill it. We were chasing coyotes! Yeah I just got a few hours in the helicopter, I said I don't want anything like this. But anyway we transferred down to San Antonio in the troop carrier, which was a C-119. I flew over 2500 hours in the C-119.
I was called to active duty during the Cuban situation, and we were hauling cargo from some of the jet basses in New Mexico over down to Florida. And we said "well what are we hauling?" "It's none of your damn business, this is how much it weighs now you take it to Florida". I dint know what it was, but we did that. It was classified stuff.
I had an airplane down there onetime, a C-119, we were doing our check out and we had left the base checking out going to another base and the crew chief said "sir we got some white stuff coming over our wing". White stuff, oh my gosh that's gasoline! Okay, we are not going to shut it down like we normally do, I said "we are going tom shut off the gasoline going to the left engine. Because if I change anything it will change the flow of the gas and we will burn up. So we did that and the engine quit and we feathered it and everything like that and we went on in and landed it at another base. We blew a couple of tires though. Laughs. We got it down safely, didn't kill anybody. Then I flew to Mexico, Porto Rico, we flew all over the United States in the 119's hauling stuff. Mostly what we were doing was hauling personnel, diplomatic people and stuff like that. And on one trip out to Guatemala we brought some bananas back, two stalks of them about 3 and a half foot tall, I paid 75 cents for them, oh boy I was given everybody I knew bananas. Laughs. Oh boy those were good oh man oh man! Anyway I retired as a Major in 1972. I was a command pilot because of the thousands of hours I had. The ribbons I got, I got three or four, they were for nothing heroic. Laughs. I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it.
What were you paid starting out?
I was paid little under 200 dollars a month. I was paid 20 cents an hour as a kid. It was pretty good, the most money I had ever made in my life!
Did you write many letter while in the military?
I wrote some, not too many, I never wrote much no. my mother came down to visit me at the various bases where I was. Of course my dad was in the south pacific, and we didn't correspond him much, we were so busy doing what we were doing really.
What do you think contributed the most to making the "greatest generation" what it was?
Well I'll tell you what, our parents, our parents taught us responsibility. They taught us that when you have problems go get together, and you share. And during the Depression, I was a Depression baby, and my dad worked. And he gave work for members of his family and he gave, the WPA, he gave a, golly, Chevrolet truck, he was a masonry contractor and a builder and he had this truck and he let the guys use it in the WPA, his family would use the truck made their money, for the WPA, and stuff like that, they had the CCC camps and stuff like that. We went to church, my mom and dad took us to church. We tried to be fair, and we worked, we worked. I mean while I was going to high school, while the war was getting started, dad was still able to get lumber, we were going down on the weekends into Kentucky and getting lumber to put in the houses he was building. And my uncle would drive, I was too young to drive at that time, well I did a little later on but I couldn't drive a truck loaded and stuff like that. I had a car, my parents, well I would say basically we were, shall I say, pretty well off. Yeah, yeah, because we had a car, I had a car, I worked, I had nice clothes, I had everything, I didn't haft to ask for money to go on a date or something. Our house, we had all the kids over because we had a large house, and we had a basement and a wreck room. And we would have the kids over for parties and everything like that. We were pretty well off I would say. And other than that, we were Methodists, and then after we got married Natalie and, I was the superintendent of the Sunday school, and we got to look at the stuff that the Methodist church was putting out and that's a social deal basically, doesn't stand for anything. So then we moved on an went to other churches and other places, went to the Lutheran church, and I got out of the
Masons, because the Lutherans wouldn't let you in. laughs. Then we went to san Antonio and joined John's church and got saved and all that kind of stuff. But that pretty well tells what I did. I retired in 1972 as a major, and right now I have retirement income, and we are not poor. Let's put it that way. Laughs.
Is there anything you would like to add to this interview?
Well I don't know what I could add but, the older I get, I find out that the good Lord was with me. How did I meet my wife? And how did I pass those check flights when other guys got washed out? And I have had situations flying B-24's, we we lost prop control, we got it in, landed, put us in another airplane, took off. Let's see it was gear failure this time, we worked that out, turned around and landed. They said we got another airplane, we told them to go fly a kite! When I was flying jets at Randolph, I was out going through procedures, the automatic procedures in the fuel system, when you used your wing tanks, then automatically you would go into your fuselage tank or whatever the cycle was. There was a short in the cycle. And the red lights came on, on my emergency system. I gang loaded all the fuel switches and everything like that, that's what we were supposed to do. I called in and send I have got an emergency. I am out at Cuero, and I declared an emergency. And they said roger you are cleared to come in. and I headed straight to Randolph field. They said we changed runways and everything like that , I said okay that's fine, the runway you might have some traffic, I said that's fine I am coming in. the other guys got out of the way and I turned down the runway and made my landing runaway into the taxi way, the engine quit. Now the good Lord was with me. And other things, we had siphoning fuel in one of the jets going out to California. The syphoning fuel means fuel is coming out, the screw cap was miss-threaded. You take off and you got the radio for where your landing, the radios were set, at that time you couldn't reset them. A short time there after you could change them. Here I cannot talk to anybody except the guy in California and I am in Arizona where this happens. And I finally get in there and I tell them man I have got a problem, I have syphoning fuel, and I said I have got a red light. He said roger and he guided me in. its night and I am not seeing a thing, I am looking at my instruments and then I see these two little ole yellow lines, at 500 foot I see them, and I land. Afterward I talked to the crew chief and said a want to know how many gallons of fuel I have got left, I saw him the next day and he said you had 20 gallons, gosh that was nothing for a jet.
I went from the army air corps to the air force in 1947. I don't have much to say about anything else..
You had another incident with a crop duster one time didn't you?
Yeah I crashed one. I overloaded a, we put the dust in the back of it, it was hot, and so anyway, I didn't think it as overloaded, really, I thought I was okay. So I run out on the runway, we gave the throttle to it, and my prop started over speeding, and I am trying to control the prop and that reduced my thrust and I just started up and there was a tank dam, and my right gear hit the tank, and it spun me. I had just lifted off the dirt road, I guess the wings kept it from flipping over. The airplane was crashed, I mean it was wreaked! In fact I sat there, for a while, I unbuckled my harness, trying to get out of that thing. Finally I got sideways and I took my boot and knocked the door out or the airplane to get out of it. I was in shock I am sure. And then we had another airplane and I had to put some dust somewhere else so I climb in that one and dusted an then ya make you run and come up and twist I was getting cough cough from the engine. I came back down there, and it keeps coughing and I dumped my dust and was finished on this field, and I am going along just above the highline and it's still coughing and I land on the road and roll into the little holes in the ground for my wheels got out and I was shaking like no body's business! I told the guys I finished the stuff and I am out of here. Turns out there was a wasp nest or something in the fuel line. I never did any more crop-dusting, this was back in 1955 or 1956.
